This article is good and 100% on the mark. A couple years ago from my absolute total football athletic approach. I thought the SEC would be a dream come true for any academic institution with a football program.
I have been on many boards from these possible expansion schools since then and I hear just what is in this article thrown at me. Especially concerning the academics. These Virginians and North Carolinians are very heavily into this AAU and CIC scholastic stuff. They are into it to the extent of preferring the B1G over the SEC by a large majority. They will proudly declare that their love for sports goes far beyond just football and that football is not the only priority for them. They further state that all the SEC is known for is football.
I know better than that. I think of Virginia and North Carolina people as Blue Noses who resent the SEC more than they want it. I hope the SEC comes to it's senses and takes FSU and Clemson. Mentality does make a difference! The SEC needs schools and fans who have a southern football mentality! Not a bunch of transplanted Blue Nosed Yankee jerks who will always be looking North.
@WarHog38 Or VTech and Clemson, if Florida, UT, and Georgia are leery of adding FSU.
@BruceMcF I think Clemson and FSU are virtually the only matches for the SEC from the ACC. Those Virginia and North Carolina fans do not like the SEC now. How are they going to be when the SEC takes part in breaking up their hallowed ACC? Plus being passed on by the B1G.
When I write Virginia and North Carolina, I am referring to VT, UVA, UNC, UNST and Duke. They all have ACC loving fans who favor the B1G over the SEC by a huge margin. I do not want a bunch of pissed off people in the SEC! Maybe Slive does? I hope not!
@WarHog38 @BruceMcF That stuff isn't worth your time or mine. In my view, there is nothing better than finding a great message board that serves thoughtful adults whose interests are similar to mine. So much of the stuff out there is of what I like to call the neener-neener variety.
Every university has its strengths. Take, for example, Oklahoma State. It gets beaten up pretty badly by the academic snobs in other conferences. Still, when I began the MBA program at Georgetown - a school that has no shortage of snobs - my financial accounting professor elected to use a text book and online program that had been developed by two accounting profs at Oklahoma State. "It's the best I've found," he would say when asked. For good measure, one of the best marketing students in my Georgetown class earned his undergraduate degree at the University of Arkansas.
@WarHog38 Florida [hits palm on forehead], how could I forget Florida? Just because they play competitive football doesn't mean they AREN'T an elite research university. After Maryland leaves, it will be 5 AAU schools in the ACC, four in the SEC. If UNC switched to the SEC, the SEC would have *more* AAU schools than the ACC. If after the ACC being destabilized UVA and/or GTech moved to the Big Ten, the ACC would have no more, and possibly fewer, AAU schools than the SEC.
That could well be the "Toto, I don't think we are in Kansas anymore" moment for UNC. But, paradoxically, if both the Big Ten and the SEC are waiting for that to happen, it might never happen, because it seems unlikely that the ACC schools that the Big12 want agree to go to the Big12 unless the ACC is already destabilized, which means its either the SEC or Big Ten who have to move first.
Anyway, people who have oversimplified views of the world have an unfortunate advantage in web forums, because they can come up with an immediate response without any additional thought, while people who have more awareness of how complex, and sometimes contradictory, the real world is are still thinking things through.
@Roggespierre I take the US News and World Report grad school rankings with a grain of salt, but if trying to get an overall view of a school's overall academic status, and not putting too much weight on any individual position, they are still workable. But not only do a lot of schools game the system for their undergraduate rankings, but even more, academic status is not ABOUT undergraduate education, so even if it were 100% accurate, it still would be beside the point.
And thanks for mentioning the U.S. News rankings problem. In my experience, academicians think they're a joke. Administrators don't for exactly the reason you cite - HS seniors care about them, so administrators are forced to care about them, too.
@BruceMcF It is snobbery to a large degree. I had those posters on those ACC boards tell me that Missouri, Vandy, Florida and Texas A&M were all gone to the B1G for the asking. I never responded to such. Too busy countering the other junk they posted. However I thought those particular comments by them were absurd.
I know I just had a tiny fraction of a school's fan base on those boards. I feel sometimes those types can bully others who feel differently off a board. It worked with me, I do not punch their boards up anymore. I agree that the size of research grants should not be the final deciding factor in the average person's choice of a college.
@WarHog38 @Roggespierre Bear down on every advantage ~ Duke football may be lackluster, but its a top-10 national research university with millions of research grants and lots of top-25 grad school programs. Many people talking about academic status on conference discussion boards go to the US News and World Report site and quote the headline ranking ~ but that is the undergraduate ranking, because of the $$$ that USNWR makes every year selling those profiles to HS seniors. The real story in terms of academic status comes when you click through to the ranking of the grad school programs.
Its not JUST about money ~ its partly about academic snobbery. Notre Dame is not a big money research university, but it has top-25 law and business schools, so while academics in a top flight research university would not be popping the corks to get Notre Dame in a conference, they wouldn't look down their nose on Notre Dame either.
@Roggespierre I was always aware that every university has a research department. However I was not aware of the deficiencies of most all the SEC schools with regards to research until I spent several months on those ACC sports boards. There I had the 100's of millions of dollars in deficiencies quoted to me repeatedly.
I read in this article that the SEC is getting their own version of a CIC going. I guess it is none too soon in the new world of today!
@Roggespierre Well, one fantastic AAU school, and also Missouri.
@AllTideUp @WarHog38 @BruceMcF I'm all for taking advantage of inherent strengths. The SEC enjoys a significant competitive advantage with regards to football, namely that a disproportionately high percentage of the nation's best players are developed in its back yard. There should be no shame in leveraging that advantage for the benefit of the the universities at large.
Two fantastic AAU schools just joined the SEC due to the opportunity and stability that are afforded by football. How great is that?
@WarHog38 It's more about money than education. The southern schools do a fine job of educating their undergraduate and graduate students. The CIC was about getting money from federal agencies, the National Science Foundation in particular. That agency exists for one reason - to hand out money for scientific research. It has no other purpose.
@AllTideUp @WarHog38 @BruceMcF All of this is definitely true. I have tremendous respect for the SEC institutions. For a variety of reasons- some self-inflicted and others not - they had a late start in the research game. And, when it comes to research, it's very important to take state politics into account.
Being a native Hoosier, I can tell you that the state is very proud to have two public AAU universities. It took a lot of commitment at the state level. Indiana has never been able to match the human, financial, and political resources of states like Ohio, Michigan and Illinois. Add in Notre Dame, which is still located in Indiana despite its continuous efforts to act as if it's on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, and we're doing pretty well for a state of 3 million people.
The point is that I can relate to the South in some ways. The sense of community that y'all enjoy every Saturday afternoon is a thing of beauty that is unique in the world of sports.
But the SEC and ACC are not as different on that front as a lot of people remember. When I was living in Knoxville, there was only one AAU school in the SEC, but the last two adds have been AAU schools. With Maryland leaving, there's only going to be ffive AAU schools in the ACC. So if UNC moved to the SEC, the two conferences would have an equal number of AAU schools.
As a side note, I'd disagree with those who figure that the AAU status is WHY the SEC invited Texas A&M and Mizzou. Both add bigger "home" TV markets than the middle SEC schools. East Texas is the most "southern" part of Texas. And while the majority of Missouri is midwestern, there is a distinctly "southern" section in the southeast corner of the state that makes up about a quarter to a third of the state population.
@AllTideUp I agree with you that the SEC is full of fine educational institutions that rank with any conference. However the B1G has it's own ways of self evaluation as the AAU and CIC. As this article states, the SEC must do the same and is presently doing so. I know the SEC will get there in the decades ahead.
@BruceMcF Of course I hope you are the one that is right if the SEC should take VT. I just feel the SEC does not have very many good choices left with expansion.
Texas never wanted in the SEC and neither does Oklahoma without OSU. The Kansas schools would be a huge mistake culturally. The SEC does not want SMU, Baylor, TCU or TT. Pitt does not fit. The SEC has done rejected UWV. You add in a bunch of bad attitude Virginia and North Carolina ACC fans with a B1G slant.
That is why I said FSU and Clemson. Good southern schools who really want the SEC. There are not many left!
@Roggespierre Your sentiment is exactly what I experienced from posters on those Virginia boards. Most were not as gracious as you in expressing it though. It is a cultural difference, especially for someone of my age. Twenty years ago you never heard this scholastic stuff mentioned in the same sentence with football in the South. The B1G has been working diligently on that CIC since 1958. The SEC has a lot of catching up to do since that has apparently now been made important.
I care about more than football as well. Sports exist for the schools rather than the other way around. That doesn't mean sports can't be a heck of a lot of fun though or be a uniting force of a community. I think that's the big difference between the SEC and B1G. It's the culture of the regions rather than the approach to academics.
People think the SEC folks only care about football. No, we just care about it more. Every school in the SEC is a high quality institution and nationally ranked, a few are as good as any the FBS has to offer. Just because we haven't achieved the status of the Ivy League en mass(it's not like the B1G has either) or because we aren't chocked full of AAU schools doesn't mean our academics suck as some like to put it(not accusing anyone here of doing that).
Fact is the SEC states, by and large, have always been poorer than their Midwestern counterparts. The trends are changing somewhat economically, but it takes time for that to trickle into every aspect of society.
@WarHog38 In the end though trash talk on an online discussion group is mostly hot air by a small number of loudmouths. I still do not think you can lump UVA and VTech in particular in the same boat. They've got different cultures. If VTech made the jump, they'd not be "anti-SEC" for twenty or thirty years. They could well turn into bigger SEC braggarts than A&M fans talking to UTX fans.
@WarHog38 @BruceMcF No doubt, the culture is different. I'm a B1G fan, and I care about a lot more than football. I want academic prestige. I want greatness in basketball - haven't had much in recent years. That said, I like the SEC because it plays a brand of college football that is clearly superior and more fun to watch. I don't want my conference to imitate the SEC, but I'm glad the SEC exists.
@BruceMcF I wanted to think of UVA fans being more snobbish or snootier than VT fans as well. I really could tell no diference in them. They got along very well on the same boards. I thought of the big fights between Hog and Red Wolf fans at any opportunity on such a board. Did not see it with them, they get along well.
Slews of posters on those boards will proudly tell you football is not their big thing. It is not the ultimate purpose of a learning institution or their only concern in sports. I heard these type comments repeatedly and if I countered. I was the one chided by those that followed.
I know I was the outsider on those boards and that in it's own gets you some mistreatment. However time after time and over and over repeating. I mean a true anti-SEC attitude is bore out. The SEC does not need that for 20 or 30 years coming out of those two states!
@WarHog38 If an fan of an SEC school goes onto boards of any other conference school, they are going to attract SEC bashing. Haters gonna hate, after all, that's just the way internet forums work, and as the top football conference, SEC backers are going to attract more than their fair share.
But its UVA that attracts more of the academic snootiness, and my impression about VTech fans is they are more football first. Northern VA may be the southern end of the Northeast Corridor, but that's still a big part of why many of them are VTech fans instead of Cavalier fans.
The main worry about NC State would be how much of a step up in class it would be ~ at least in Fall ~ for a program that only spends about $12m on football.
@BruceMcF I have relatives who have lived in Northern Virginia for years. They tell me the Northern 1/2 of Virginia is literally just like living in the North. The Southern 1/2 is more southern to some extent. As far as VT, it has a huge part of the enrollment coming from the NE and B1G regions. I have only been on boards but I can attest to the SEC being heavily bashed there. I can not see a pro SEC majority coming from anywhere. Maybe from the young T-Shirt crowd as you suggest?
However I have always come from this school of thought. They do not want me, I do not want them!
@WarHog38 My impression was that if you did a survey of t-shirt fans of VTech between the SEC and the Big Ten, the SEC would win by a fair margin, but unlike East Tennessee, I've never lived any substantial length of time in either Virginia or North Carolina, so that's just an outside impression.